Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

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DanB
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Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

Post by DanB » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:11 am

I'm curious what the differences are in *minimum* corner speeds between the faster Corvettes (Bob Cairns, Micheal Fuchshwantz, Laura Fleming et al) and the faster Miatae (Will, Gordon) at, say, turn 3 NHMS (or any lower-speed corner at any track). It seems to me that the fast Miatae should have much faster *minimum* speeds since the higher power/weight cars are going to want to cut a tighter arc before the apex, sacrificing mid-corner speed to allow a much broader arc from apex to track-out to allow them to put the power down.

Basic concept, but I'm wondering if there's any data available to quantify this.
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Re: Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

Post by brucesallen » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:50 am

I would think so. It should be even more pronounced in Turn 6 where you see low powered cars do their best not to brake much and hold onto all their entry speed through the corner with out running off the exit pavement. I like to explain it as "power to stick ratio" rather than just power. IF I have a student that has a fairly low powered car but even worse (street) tires then I council him to go deep in three, brake more and "point and shoot" out of the corner like a high powered car. My Formula E has a fairly high power-to-weight ratio (7 lbs/hp) but drives like a "low powered" car" (actually low power-to-stick) because it has fat soft racing slicks for the weight, very low center of gravity, low roll center and wings (although wings don't help in turn 3).

One thing I always tell students: don't waste the power you have. If you are exiting turn 3 and you must feather the throttle to avoid going off the outside or spinning the inside wheel then you are a high power-to-stick car and you need to late apex and point and shoot. Then as soon as you are near the apex you are on full throttle all the way up the hill. The result is faster exit speed.
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Re: Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

Post by DanB » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:03 pm

Would be very interesting to see logged data in lower speed turns to compare minimum speeds between the two (fast Corvette vs. fast Miata).
I'm having a discussion on another forum where a driver of a ~7 lb/hp modded street/track FD RX-7 is convinced that no Miata with half the power/weight is going as fast as he is *anywhere* on the track. It would be good to have data to support my argument that the slower Miata should have a minimum corner speed that is somewhat faster due to carving a broader arc with a larger minimum radius, given equivalent grip/weight between the two cars.
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Re: Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

Post by wizzman » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:16 pm

I don't have much context for what is a fast minimum speed for T3. Looks like mine is in the 42-43 mph range on this first lap (ignore that mis-shift):



My faster laps I am able to get my braking done earlier and get back on full throttle at or just after turn in and before the apex.
Last edited by wizzman on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

Post by kfoote » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:12 pm

Here you go. Viper and Corvette ZR1 at Laguna Seca

http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests ... -Graph.jpg

Miata at Laguna Seca

http://www.trackpedia.com/mediawiki/ima ... GPS249.jpg

You have to do a bit of matching up of the turn numbers, but the Miata has a higher minimum speed in (real turn #, same as in the Viper/Corvette diagram) turns 2, 3, 5, 8A, and 11. Unlike turn 3 at NHMS, which is pretty wacky, turns 3 and 11 at Laguna are about as conventional of a slow 3rd gear and 2nd gear corner respectively as it gets.
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Re: Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

Post by DanB » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:27 pm

Viper and ZR1 are remarkably well-matched! Miata did a 1:41, was it anything like stock?
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Re: Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

Post by kfoote » Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:12 pm

If I remember correctly, it was a Mazdaspeed Miata that likely had a Spec Miata suspension kit on it. From what I found, the Spec Miata lap record there is in the 1:46 range.
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Re: Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

Post by CP » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:08 am

43mph is my best through T3. I've adopted an inside line there that gains me multiple car-lengths on competitors ahead of me during races. So an earlier turn-in than usual...meaning earlier braking and earlier off the brakes prior to cranking on the steering wheel. I've posted this lap before, and actually turned a better one in 2013 but I can't remember which weekend/video:
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Re: Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

Post by Bobc » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:02 am

Sorry Dan, I don't have a data logger and I'm a bit busy to look down then but in other places I do LOL So I guess I am of no use for you.
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Re: Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

Post by DanB » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:12 pm

Yeah, I'm never looking at my gauges in 3 either. Too busy trying to keep car pointed in a semi-reasonable direction!
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Re: Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

Post by TroyV » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:02 pm

My old data logs have have me between 38 and 41 as the slowest speed in T3.

My oldest logs show the highest speeds.....back in the 1.6 days. Telling..
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Re: Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

Post by DanB » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:24 pm

Well, here's a C5 Z06 with a minimum of 42mph in turn 3, so it looks like there may not be as much difference (or, indeed, *any* difference) in minimum speed there as I had thought! Would be good to know what Will and Gordon are carrying through there, though...

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Re: Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

Post by wizzman » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:33 am

1:19.81 is pretty weak for a ZO6 though given the recent COM results.
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Re: Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

Post by DanB » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:03 pm

Yeah, but I figure the turn 3 minimum speed is probably representative.

Again, what would be GREAT would be to have accurate speed data from the fast COM Corvettes (Michael, Bob, Laura) and the fast COM Miatae (Will and Gordon).
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Re: Turn 3 NHMS, apex speeds, Corvette vs. Miata

Post by Grippy » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:03 pm

I looked thru some old logs and seem to be about 40-41 at lowest speed in T3.

So we have a few Miata speeds from different drivers and all about the same, how about some Z06 speeds?
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