Anyone going to the Rolex 24 this year?

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SEISAN
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Re: Anyone going to the Rolex 24 this year?

Post by SEISAN » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:43 pm

Kevin, thanks for the insight.

Now.....
If I just hit a wall, blew a tire I would try to limp back to the pits as best as I can. I would assume that my speed is far slower with a blown tire and I am driving a crippled car and not sure the what condition I am in both physically and mentally. I also assume that there would be cars blowing by me at FULL SPEED without a full course yellow and they would not know the condition of the Porche. I could be in or even cause a serious accident. Common sense dictates a full course yellow. That is unless you go there to see accidents, then go to Demolition Derby. Safety is Rule 1.


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Re: Anyone going to the Rolex 24 this year?

Post by Shawn624 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:20 pm

I missed it again :( I watch the highlights and start/finish every year and think of how nice it must be to spend the January weekend in Florida instead of the great state of NH.

Even with the yellows, this seems like a great event at the perfect time of winter to head for Florida for a week or so. I'll put it on the calendar again for next year. It would be really nice to be a part of some race team to enjoy the competitive part of the race more (even if the outcome is managed by NASCAR).
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Re: Anyone going to the Rolex 24 this year?

Post by kfoote » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:07 am

SEISAN wrote:Kevin, thanks for the insight.

Now.....
If I just hit a wall, blew a tire I would try to limp back to the pits as best as I can. I would assume that my speed is far slower with a blown tire and I am driving a crippled car and not sure the what condition I am in both physically and mentally. I also assume that there would be cars blowing by me at FULL SPEED without a full course yellow and they would not know the condition of the Porche. I could be in or even cause a serious accident. Common sense dictates a full course yellow. That is unless you go there to see accidents, then go to Demolition Derby. Safety is Rule 1.
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There was a far too graphic example of this earlier in the race. Also, in addition to the Porsche going slow, there was also a large chunk of tire carcass and fender liner on line that departed the car That I believe ended up at track out in the second horseshoe. The caution was more for that than for the Porsche itself.

Again, I'm not sure why anyone thinks this is any different after the merger than it has been in the past with IMSA prior to the merger. 3 of the 10 ALMS races last year (Laguna, Lime Rock, and Road America) had cautions in the last 10 laps, compared with 3 of 13 (Detroit, Laguna, and Lime Rock) for Grand-Am. Going into this a bit further, 3 of the 4 ALMS races at Lime Rock or Laguna in 2011 and 2012 also had a caution in the last 10 laps, and the other one (Lime Rock 2011), went back to green with 17 laps to go. I'd say the issue is more with those two particular tracks than with what series runs at them. For comparison, 1 of 4 races at those tracks that had a caution with less than 10 to go in the Grand-Am Rolex series in 2011 or 2012.

I really don't get this irrational thought of "NASCAR is ruining road racing in the US" for any real reason other than the fallacy of "NASCAR only turns left, the drivers have no skill, and there's no technology there". For those of you out there with this prejudice, I encourage you to look at the entire history of road racing in the US, and see that NASCAR has actually done more to promote professional sports car racing than any other sanctioning body.
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Re: Anyone going to the Rolex 24 this year?

Post by 962porsche » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:56 am

very true about what nascar has don for other forms of racing . it has opened up peoples eyes to other forms .

yes the crash with the DP car running into the back of the 62 risi Ferrari was bad . coming around another slower car to see a slow moving Ferrari is not what I would ever want to see . it also happened at LRP with a lotus I think it was .
how every the Porsche that blow a tire and were it happened he could have very easily limped the car back way off line with out having to cross the track . hell there is a escape road 50 FT way from were he hit the wall .
the thing is racing is dangerous but with slick tires you get punchers all the time . it's road racing and if they start to throw full course yellows for every one it will take away for the sport .
good racing is not happening under a yellow that's when you go take a leak or get some thing to drink .
then bunching up the classes for a restart adds to having more crashes .
when I was spotting for some races I would always let the driver know were there was a slow car on track . the spotter's for the DP car that hit the Ferrari did not let the driver know what was going on .
the other fact that the corner worker did not have out a yellow in that area added to the reason why the crash happened .
if there was a yellow out the DP car would not have tried to pass the slower car hitting the Ferrari .

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Re: Anyone going to the Rolex 24 this year?

Post by kfoote » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:58 pm

962porsche wrote:very true about what nascar has don for other forms of racing . it has opened up peoples eyes to other forms .
I am not talking about NASCAR's indirect awareness. I am talking about direct funding from NASCAR to promote Sports Car racing. The current IMSA, Grand-AM, the World Sports car series, the USRRC, and the original IMSA all either had direct funding from NASCAR or were outright created by NASCAR above and beyond promotion of the NASCAR owned tracks that they happened to race at.
it's road racing and if they start to throw full course yellows for every one it will take away for the sport .
good racing is not happening under a yellow that's when you go take a leak or get some thing to drink .
then bunching up the classes for a restart adds to having more crashes .
As mentioned in my other posts this thread, the number of cautions thrown by Grand Am, and the time spend under caution during the race, has historically been equal to or less than the previous iteration of IMSA over the last 5 years. If the thought is that NASCAR is taking over and the rulings on when to use full course yellows, there will be equal to or fewer cautions than in the last 5 years in in the previous iteration of IMSA, NOT MORE.
when I was spotting for some races I would always let the driver know were there was a slow car on track . the spotter's for the DP car that hit the Ferrari did not let the driver know what was going on .
the other fact that the corner worker did not have out a yellow in that area added to the reason why the crash happened .
if there was a yellow out the DP car would not have tried to pass the slower car hitting the Ferrari .
The reason that Memo Gidley (the DP driver) did not see a caution or a white flag for the slow moving Ferrari is because he was past the last flag station prior to where he hit the Ferrari when the Ferrari slowed down. The International Horseshoe is about a 40 MPH corner, and the Ferrari started to accelerate at the apex, then the car shut off at about track out. It was only about 100 yards, and maybe 5 seconds, from where the Ferrari lost power until where it got hit.

As far as the spotter goes, I don't know if Gainsco had a spotter in the tower at the time. Even so, that particular section of track is partially obstructed by the scoring pylon from the spotter's section.
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Re: Anyone going to the Rolex 24 this year?

Post by 962porsche » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:51 pm

I think your misunderstanding what i'm saying !
racing is dangerous your not going to change that there will always be freak things that happen .
again the same thing at LRP with the lotus .

because one race has about the same yellows as they have in the past is not the point .
it's the fact that the last yellow really was not needed that's what i'm saying .

as a racer some of the best races I have had I did not win the race but racing with the other drive was a total blast .
as for the drivers in the series they go to race not drive under a full course caution needlessly .
I as a fan watch to see good racing not watch them under needless cautions .


my point being that if they are going to just start throwing more fill course yellows for no good reasons because of the Ferrari / DP crash then it's the wrong fix . it will lead to more 5 lap dash to the checker racing .
you do see it in nascar all the time it's like they look for any reason just to have that dash to the checker .
because of that you have no need to watch a hole race just watch the last 5 or so laps .
the days of the leader being 5 or 6 laps ahead of the other cars in there class is over now 24 hours you still will have cars in your class on your lap with the leader .
with more dash to the flag racing you will get more bumping and banging fine for a car built out of steel like nascars . not good for DP , LMP cars made out of carbon and fiberglass bang them together and you get more sharp pieces of carbon and FG on the track to cut more tires to get more flats to throw more yellows to make for worse racing .

no to much of any thing is not good !

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Re: Anyone going to the Rolex 24 this year?

Post by kfoote » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:21 pm

962porsche wrote:I think your misunderstanding what i'm saying !
racing is dangerous your not going to change that there will always be freak things that happen .
again the same thing at LRP with the lotus .

because one race has about the same yellows as they have in the past is not the point .
it's the fact that the last yellow really was not needed that's what i'm saying .

as a racer some of the best races I have had I did not win the race but racing with the other drive was a total blast .
as for the drivers in the series they go to race not drive under a full course caution needlessly .
I as a fan watch to see good racing not watch them under needless cautions .


my point being that if they are going to just start throwing more fill course yellows for no good reasons because of the Ferrari / DP crash then it's the wrong fix . it will lead to more 5 lap dash to the checker racing .
you do see it in nascar all the time it's like they look for any reason just to have that dash to the checker .
because of that you have no need to watch a hole race just watch the last 5 or so laps .
the days of the leader being 5 or 6 laps ahead of the other cars in there class is over now 24 hours you still will have cars in your class on your lap with the leader .
with more dash to the flag racing you will get more bumping and banging fine for a car built out of steel like nascars . not good for DP , LMP cars made out of carbon and fiberglass bang them together and you get more sharp pieces of carbon and FG on the track to cut more tires to get more flats to throw more yellows to make for worse racing .

no to much of any thing is not good !
I guess we'll agree to disagree.

If you think this is a NASCAR conspiracy, I don't think there's anything I can do to change your mind. I don't think NASCAR had any effect on the number and timing of cautions because:

The number and frequency of cautions is equal to or less with Grand-Am than it was with ALMS
The number and frequency of late race cautions is equal to or less than it was with ALMS
The current race director of the TUSCC that ultimately made the decision to go full course yellow has been in that position with the ALMS since 2012.
Though the caution was thrown quickly after the Porsche hit the wall, there was other debris on the track, in the bus stop specifically, that our driver had been complaining about in the few laps prior.
After the caution was thrown, there were large pieces of debris in a precarious spot (I went back and watched the replay, it was just after the apex in turn 6, not in the second horsehoe) that would have done significant damage if a car had hit it at 60 MPH.
There were no close on-track battles to disrupt. There is a reason that the TV coverage was focusing on class leaders running by themselves for the 15 minutes prior to the last yellow.
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Re: Anyone going to the Rolex 24 this year?

Post by 962porsche » Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:51 pm

yes I do remember the piece that was there now .
I did not state nascar had or has there hand in USCC and that is why they throw the flag .
what i'm saying is like nascar they tended to throw the last flag way to quickly not because of nascar .
for the fans the last dash in nascar is a lot of excitement I think it's just plain dumb in sportscar racing it becomes dangerous .

but we don't agree and that's fine :)

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Re: Anyone going to the Rolex 24 this year?

Post by John F » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:22 pm

kfoote wrote:Short version: it levels the playing field for the non-overall leading classes.

Long version: Suppose that the overall leader is lapping cars in a slower class, and comes up on a battle for the lead, with the first and second place cars in the slower class running nose to tail. Just after the overall leader passes P2 in the slower class, the full course caution comes out. The pace car then picks up the overall leader, and P2 in the slower class is stuck behind while P1 in the slower class effectively gets a full lap up on P2. P1 could then come into the pits, make a pit stop, and still be effectively a lap up, with full fuel and fresh tires. The current procedure with the wave-bys and closing of the pits equalizes this situation, where P2 is allowed to pass the overall leader, and P1 can't pit until after the wave-bys happen. In IMSA, until about 5 years ago, the pits were open all the time, and scenarios similar to the above example played out on several occasions, taking a close class battle and making it a runaway.
Thanks, Kevin. I don't like it, but I can see the rationale now. Well explained. I'll stick to watching the Aussie super V8's
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Re: Anyone going to the Rolex 24 this year?

Post by SEISAN » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:40 pm

Kevin,

I enjoyed the detailed explanation you gave and your knowledgeable insight,

especially the "short version".

Thanks,

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