Water & Methanol/Ethanol Inj - Question

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cgreekie
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Water & Methanol/Ethanol Inj - Question

Post by cgreekie » Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:23 pm

Hello,

I have a rule question or probly more a points question.
I have a half baked water/alc injection system installed its not 100% complete yet but is plumbed mostly wired ect...
I do have a switch that completely disables the system and will do so for the time trials.

The points for the injection system put me over the 16 point extra safety equipment I cant afford line.
So if it is disabled is that exceptable not to include the points?

Details,

Honda Fit T30,
Engine Mod points 15
...
Total points 14

Thanks, Chris

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Re: Water & Methanol/Ethanol Inj - Question

Post by jeffw » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:07 pm

You should read the rules about Water/Meth in terms of safety. Highlights are no more than 1 gallon, and the container and lines need to follow the appropriate rules:

Small amounts of Methyl or Ethyl Alcohol may be injected into the engine for engine cooling and
detonation control when mixed with at least 50% water. No more than 1 gallon of such mix shall be
carried in the car to ensure that it is not a primary fuel. Whenever an alcohol/water mix is injected into the
engine it shall be considered a fuel and the tank must follow the same rules as other fuels

I would suggest that having the system entirely empty and disabled by a switch that can't be reached by the driver during the TT should allow it to be considered disabled.
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Re: Water & Methanol/Ethanol Inj - Question

Post by cgreekie » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:44 pm

Hi,

Thanks for the reply,

To clarify,
The system uses the stock washer bottle which is a gallon.

Also the switch is underhood and switches between the washer pump being active and the injection pump being active.
Only one works at anytime. there is not enough underhood space for another tank so this was my creative solution.

I think the washer bottle may not meet specifications for fuel either.
I could run it empty unless the conditions that day would call for need of washer fluid... cant think of a reason for that. Excessive mayfly swams perhaps :wink:

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Re: Water & Methanol/Ethanol Inj - Question

Post by cuda6666 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:42 pm

:lol: :lol: I guess tech inspection should include a check to make sure that the stock washer reservoir is empty.

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Re: Water & Methanol/Ethanol Inj - Question

Post by kfoote » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:06 pm

I actually intentionally run all of my cars with functioning washer bottles and a small amount of washer fluid on track. I had one occasion on the first lap of an SCCA race several years ago where I had to go off track and through a mud puddle to avoid car that had spun in front of me, which covered the windshield with mud. I got some strange looks from the corner workers when using it, but I was able to run the race and see where I was going without needing to stop.
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Re: Water & Methanol/Ethanol Inj - Question

Post by cuda6666 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:24 pm

Was I being too subtly facetious? I meant that if the rules say that washer fluid used for performance has to be treated like fuel with protected lines and what not, isn't the stock washer reservoir and plumbing considered a safety hazard?
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Re: Water & Methanol/Ethanol Inj - Question

Post by cgreekie » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:25 pm

Hah, I think I'd be out of luck if I ran through mud like that the nozzle on drivers side is half blocked and sprays towards passenger side.
Yah you can use washer fluid for injection but it's only about 35% methanol. I usually fill the bottle with 50/50 water ethanol for HPDE though.
I think the solenoid being disconnected would be enough. The system is disabled at the moment anyways, the controler gave up and not sure when I can get to rebuild it.

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Re: Water & Methanol/Ethanol Inj - Question

Post by dinoracer » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:16 pm

Chris

As noted, please read and understand the rules regarding water/alcohol injection. This rule is a safety concern, in addition to what you see in classification points section. It applies to your car for the entire event, not just the time trial.

Please replace your washer bottle with a proper tank for your mixture, or leave your washer system completely empty and run without injection. I don't bring analysis equipment to the track, so if your washer bottle is full and I see an injection system I'm assuming it's 50/50 or more and sending you home.

PM me if you have any specific questions.
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Re: Water & Methanol/Ethanol Inj - Question

Post by 962porsche » Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:38 am

some people use washer fluid for there injection system .
you can not just use any and all washer fluids but many you can .

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Re: Water & Methanol/Ethanol Inj - Question

Post by cgreekie » Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:09 pm

Hi dinoracer,

Thanks that was what I was looking for.
Sometimes the understanding does not come with the reading, thus the question.

It states that whenever alc/water is injected, it must meet certain requirements. It might benefit from adding that even if not in use any such installed system must meet these standards as well?
Small amounts of Methyl or Ethyl Alcohol may be injected into the engine for engine cooling and detonation control when mixed with at least 50% water. No more than 1 gallon of such mix shall be carried in the car to ensure that it is not a primary fuel. Whenever an alcohol/water mix is injected into the engine it shall be considered a fuel and the tank must follow the same rules as other fuels
Also by the definition in the rule book, You are allowed to inject just water without meeting these requirements though would still have to add the points for the mod?

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Re: Water & Methanol/Ethanol Inj - Question

Post by jlwhorf » Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:48 am

Also by the definition in the rule book, You are allowed to inject just water without meeting these requirements though would still have to add the points for the mod?
From what I understand about water/aclohol injection systems is that the cooling of the charge with water gives the most benefit in preventing detonation.

Quick history lesson about the rule. Several years ago, instuctors where riding in students cars that had 5+ gallons of methanol in the trunk, fed from translucent plastic tanks, so it envoked a big discussion of concern. Also when the track officials at NHMS found out about it, they said their emegency crew was not prepared fo alcohol fires. This led to the no more than 50/50 mix rule. Since a 50% mix can burn clear, the requirement for a fuel would be needed for such.

So what you should take from this thread is that if you want you use an injection system, set it up safely. A small fuel cell and braided hose is not a bank breaker. Also, as Tom stated before, we do not have a durometer to measure the mix, and if you washer bottle has liquid in it we can't accurately determine what it is.

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Re: Water & Methanol/Ethanol Inj - Question

Post by 962porsche » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:05 pm

with a water meth system you would not want to have more of a 50/50 mix .
the water is what does the cooling and also razes the compression . the meth is to not have it freeze in cold weather and also it burns off .
this is why many people are using windshield washer fluids in stead of the premixed water/ meth you can buy off the shelf at twice the cost of window washer fluids .
windshield washer fluids will not burn and many people will use the washer bottle in the cars for this .
because the systems came from the military and aircraft for heavy planes to take off what water would freeze at altitude this was the reason for the meth (antifreeze) .
using a water system for road racing is kind of pointless ! it only give a quick power boost kind of like nos does .
like nos your not going to keep dumping it into your system .
this is why drag racers use it .
does it really need to be put into any thing more then a washer bottle ?
no !
if your using to much meth in the system your defeating the purpose of the water cooling the combustion chamber and increasing the compression .

I can understand the ruling of wanting a real type of tank and SS lines .

but what I don't get is ok you have 5 Gal of water in the car .
what's a gal of water weigh ? 8.34 LBS of I remember right ????
times that by 5 gal's and what's the extra weight in the car 41.7 LBS ???
with all the good ways to turn a faster lap adding that much weight IMO is not it .
change your fuel system and go with C85 .

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Re: Water & Methanol/Ethanol Inj - Question

Post by cgreekie » Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:09 pm

I fully agree with both your points guys. At this point it's more of a discussion.
I was not planning to run it at the track period, but wanted to make sure I knew what I needed to do to a avoid the added points.

For the amount of points it adds, my lowtec system is not worth it. Even before my electronics got waterlogged. And as I said it puts me over the 16 point mark and I can't afford or justify a rollcage in my dd. just looking to have a good time doing what I love, maybe when I turn this into the dedicated track car and get another vehicle.

I appreciate the history lesson. If I was In that car and found out there was 5 gallons of methanol in the trunk. I would be getting of that ride mighty quick myself.

I understand the stance on the subject and will take the system out until I can fix it and for future events.

I app

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